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Subject: 09/04/92 - The National Midnight Star #505

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List posting/followup:     rush@syrinx.umd.edu
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                                    or
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(Administrative postings to the posting address will be ignored!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


          The National Midnight Star, Number 505

                 Friday, 4 September 1992
Today's Topics:
      Chron. II and little beef with Rolling Stones
                   Rush pics (its nose)
            Part IV, Gangster of Boats Trilogy
                        Ramblings
              Tom Whittaker(The Bus Driver)
      Re: 08/19/92 - The National Midnight Star #492
                     Don't ask me....
      Re: 09/03/92 - The National Midnight Star #504
                        Jen says:
                         Bootlegs
                     Take is easy, JM
                  Producing bootlegs...
                          fraud!
                      Rush Goodies!
                       RUSH and ABC
	           Bootlegging and such.
----------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Thu, 3 Sep 92 18:02:22 EDT
From: Chris Mermagen (WSTB|stratton) <cmermag@BRL.MIL>
Subject:  Chron. II and little beef with Rolling Stones

Hey,

	I really haven't heard anything about Chronicles II. What is the
deal (spin the wheel)...

	Also, I remember reading Rolling Stones after Presto came out,
and the reviewer said that Rush were all too derivative on this album,
with Red Tide sounding way too much like Message in the Bottle by the
Police. That kinda gets me fuming. I mean, there are so many songs with
many of the same progressions, and personally I don't think that they
sound anything alike. Oh well, just venting..

Later
Chris
"Fantasy for Sale"  $12.00 / fantasy :)

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: 03 Sep 1992 18:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: MaCHINE! <TBEAUDOIN@VAX1.UMKC.EDU>
Subject: Rush pics (its nose)

	To the woman who posted that she had some 20th row pics of
Rush, please drop me a note (i accidentally deleted your message), as i
am interested in talking with you about them.  I'm also curious as to how
many guys tried to get dates with you from your original message to the
NMS.  :-)

;-*    <----- waycool, Jr.

ORQ: "ahh-nie nie nie nie nie nie nie" -- the Twilight Zone by RUSH

Thomas Beaudoin

TBEAUDOIN@VAX1.UMKC.EDU

----------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Part IV, Gangster of Boats Trilogy
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 20:14:45 EDT
From: Robert M Cash <rmcash@eos.ncsu.edu>

Hello all !!  First time post. :v)

I remember reading in the 2nd part of the special edition
that a frequently asked question was: What happened to
parts I, II, and III of the Gangster of Boats Trilogy?
Well, I don't have the answer, but I do have a theory --
I guess it'll have to do for now.  I would just like to
point out the following:

"Witch Hunt"        from     MP      is     Part III of "Fear"
"The Weapon"        from     Sig     is     Part II of "Fear"
"The Enemy Within"  from     GuP     is     Part I of "Fear"

As everyone knows from the albums, "Fear" came out in "reverse"
order.  Maybe this will also be true of "Gangster of Boats
Trilogy", and parts I, II, and III are still to come !!!

By the way, in case there is someone out there who is unaware,
131.210.1.4 is a music based anonymous ftp server with lyrics for
and interviews with a *lot* of groups.  Just FYI.

Rob Cash

/========================================================\
|                                                        |
|    B.S. Student in Computer Science                    |
|    North Carolina State University                     |
|                                                        |
|    INTERNET:  rmcash@eos.ncsu.edu                      |
|    USmail:    4111-252 Deep Hollow Dr                  |
|               Raleigh, NC  27612                       |
|                                                        |
|--------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                        |
|     How does Teflon stick to the pan?                  |
|                                                        |
|     Why are they called buildings if they              |
|        they're already built?                          |
|                                                        |
\========================================================/

----------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:40:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: SEIDENBERG@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU
Subject: Ramblings

Bus driver- you're all correct.  The guy who was driving the bus for most
of the tours, got a herniated disk with a couple of who   shows left on
the tour, do  so he was replaced.  It's a good thing because he was a
complete dick.

Regarding Neil sightings, I was at the hotel in Birmingham Michigan right
on teh afternoon of the Pine Knob show.  As we arrived at about 2 in the
afternoon, Neil was riding off from the hotel's parking lot on his
bicycle presumably heading up to Pine Knob.  My good friend Ray W.
snapped a picture  whichis pretty cool.
As mentoined he always stays in teh same hotel as Ged and Alex
do , but he majored in college in teh art of alluding fans!!  In fact, I
remmember asking Andrew macNaughton once "how does Neil do it (allude fans)
so well???"  He laughed and said that he has had a lot of practice.

That's all for now.

Take Care.
Ken F.

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 19:25:26 -0500
From: lemkin@simon.wustl.edu
Subject: Tom Whittaker(The Bus Driver)

A Few of the readers wrote:
 regarding Jimmy's post: you're absolutely 100% right about the bus
>driver!!!  I could think of several choice words for him!  How 'bout
>we all take up a petition to get him canned!?...or at least send him
>to charm school!

Boy that is really profound! The basis of this attack is that he abruptly told
a fan not to follow the tour bus across the country to another concert.
Imagine this if you will. . .
Being the huge entity that RUSH is, they draw to attention of many people.
For the most part, Rush fans are intelligent, coherent people whose appreciat-
ion for good music and talent differentiates them from fans of groups like. . .
maybe Poison? But there are many other people, in a classification of their
own, who are obsessed with the band. If you were a bus driver for Rush, you
would spend a large amount of time outside arenas, in parking lots, and
outside hotels. These areas are accessible to many of these crazy fans.
For the most part, the only fans that the driver meets are overly agitated
and probably quite scary and demanding. After a while you would lose your
tolerance for annoying twits who made your job harder and had not respect for
your wishes to leave the bus and band alone. (Incidently, it has been noted
that the tour bus was broken into in the past and many personal items stolen).
	This is not to say that everyone trying to get a glimpse at the band
is nuts, hell even I have found myself walking around the bowels of an arena
hoping to see Neil, Geddy, or Alex roaming around. I have talked with a few
of the roadies, and assistants (Jim Johnson), and although they were RUSHED
they were still pleasent. Tom Whittaker has been their driver almost since
RUSH began, I don't think that he or any of the other crew can be condemned
for trying to discourage radical behavior in excited fans. They care a lot
about the members of the band, and are thinking of their protection, which
in this day and age is not such a crazy concern.
	Please note, this is not an attack on the writer of the Rush
following story, he explained his case, and the incident was evidently an
over-reaction on the drivers part. But I suggest that his actions can be
understood given the nature of his position.

	I am happy to answer responses to my criticism, if they are serious
and productive.

Take it easy. . . RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH

			Dan Lemkin
			Washington University in St. Louis
			lemkin@simon.wustl.edu

----------------------------------------------------------

From: cmd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Christopher M. Dunphy)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:55:26 -0500
Subject: Re: 08/19/92 - The National Midnight Star #492

  Wow, it is sure nice to see TNMS gracing my mailbox again....  ;)

        Over the summer I had a my share of Rush adventures.  I live
down where Miami used to be, and go to school up here in St. Louis.
Anyway, one evening me and several Rush fan friends were sitting
around, and I mentioned that Rush was playing St. Louis in two days.
To my amazement, they say lets go.  !?!?!  What the hell, a 20 hour
roadtrip on 12 hours notice.  We hopped in the car, four people in
a Ford Probe (2 door!) with a CD boom-box in the back seat and took
off.  On the way we listened to all the CD's in order, as well as
all the CD singles with the interviews from RTB.  Got to Riverport
in St. Louis hours before even the parking lot opened.  No worries,
we lined up and were second into the lot, and first in line to get
into the place,...  Then, to my utter amazement, Vital Signs
wafted over the wall, followed by Analog Kid.  I was orgasmic!!!  At
first I thought it must just be a recording, until I heard Alex's voice
commenting about adjustments to be made.  They were just about to start
into Analog Kid again when the local KSHE radio station pulled
up with their van and started blasting shit.  They drowned out the
rest of the soundcheck... :(  But at least they handed out cool dice
KSHE RUSH bumper stickers.....
   They performed the full search, and we were in.  I was the first
into the stadium, and staked out prime ground in the middle of the lawn...
Mr. Big played.  Pink Floyd on the intercom got more of an audieance
reaction.  Then Rush!!!!!!!!!  I didn't sit down.  I don't remember
breathing.  I was hoarse for days.  But it was worth it.
   It was even worth the hellish 20 hour ride home.  Well worth it!!! ;)

        Chris  (cmd1@cec2.wustl.edu)

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 22:11:00 cdt
From: "14A2C28C" <DFB3B0BE>
Subject: Don't ask me....

I was recently reading tract from George Santayana which I think has an
enormous amount of pertinence to this line from the song *Presto*;

"Don't ask me, I'm just improvising my illusions of careless flight"

George Santayana suggests that when looking at a flock of birds, the bird in
front ("the leader") is not really a bold spirit trusting in his own
initiative and hypnotizing the flock to follow him in his deliberate
gyrations. Rather the leader is the blindest, the most dependent of the swarm,
pecked into taking wing before the others and then pressed and chased and
driven by a thousand hissing cries and fierce glances from behind.

"Don't ask me" carries with it a feeling of uncertainty and lack of
direction. I have often felt this way when, by my own initiative or not, I
have assumed a leadership position. It really highlights Peart's brilliant
capacity to understand oneself in times of constraint and demand

-Just thought I'd share that with you.   rUSh on my friends!
-Axl Lyda

----------------------------------------------------------

From: tvos@ais.org (David A Warner)
Subject: Re: 09/03/92 - The National Midnight Star #504
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 0:10:02 EDT

This is my opinion about rush boots, I could really care a less if someone
obtains a boot of such, but to slap a price on the boot of any musician that
worked hard for their money and to have some low life making profits off of
their shows should be killed....................

I myself have a alot of boots of rush which I really enjoy seeing the other
shows that I've missed in the past, but if someone that I know as a good friend
on the net or in my home town asks me for a copy, I'm not gonna ask them
for money...... It's just not right............Bottom Line....

It's just like pirating software, recording cd's to cassette tape, recording
movies from hbo to vhs tape for the pleasure of it, not to make someone else
go broke or place greed before loyalty......

Those who posted in the last weeks about Their Fly Cd's think again before
asking people for money to replace your lost, their are other ways to obtains
boots without $$$$.........................

The Voice Of Silence

--

----------------------------------------------------------

From: keb@syrinx.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Kristin Brown)
Subject: Jen says:
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 10:15:45 EDT

>>Incidentally, are there any WOMEN on NMS?  Every female but me at the concerts
always seems to be someone's (black halter-top wearing) girlfriend.

Yes, there are. There arent MANY female rush fans, as far as i can tell
(at least in relation to male rush fans!!) but there are a few and i am
about as diehard a fan as you can be!! My sister is a fan too, though she isnt
computer literate (the horror!!!) and therefore isnt on the list.
i was kinda wondering myself if there were other females on the list!
good to meet you..
keb

----------------------------------------------------------

From: Randall Stark <randalls@cogs.sussex.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 15:47:28 +0100
Subject: Bootlegs

 I know shouldn't get involved in this discussion.  The most sensible offering
 comes gtas1@sunyit.edu (Terrance Stedman), who says

> Arguing over the bootleg issue is much like arguing over abortion.
> Both sides are convinced that they're right and no amount of debate will
> change the minds of either.  Freedom of choice allows both sides to be
> happy.

  and other reasonable things.  However I just can not let
  James.B.McKeon@Dartmouth.EDU's frothing-at-the-mouth post go unanswered.
  He says:

> I find it sad and disturbing that an alleged fan of such accomplished artists
> would self-righteously defend his ability to steal their material.

  and then goes on to "explain" what intellectual property is.  Unfortunately,
  is explanation of intellectual property is muddled, and he ultimately fails
  to show how Mr. Stedman is "stealing material."  The fallacy becomes obvious
  in his "Cadillac" analogy:

> I offer you this analogy - if someone steals a Cadillac, and then offers free
> rides to his neighbors whenever they wish, is he then free of all guilt and
> responsibility?

  The problem with the Cadillac analogy is that if someone steals a Cadillac,
  he has stolen it *from someone*, and that someone no longer has the car.
  When you trade a bootleg, you have not "taken" a thing from someone, because
  "intellectual" property can exist in abritrarily many places at once.

  The real issues in intellectual property involve a) proceeds from sales and
  b) control of content.  To try and make the Cadillac analogy work, making
  boots is more similar to setting up your own Cadilac factory, stealing all
  the designs.  Now if you distribute these Cadillacs, you a) deprive GM of
  revenue it would have realized from selling Cadillacs to those who have the
  forged ones (assuming some or all of them would have bought a "real" Cadillac
  instead) and b) you may dilute important aspects of the Cadillac brand
  name, such as quality and exclusivity.

  But even this breaks down with bootlegs, as would only apply if you were
  making copies of "official" Rush albums.  Rather, boots are copies of
  *performances* of music, not the music itself.  So long as they not
  represented to be official Rush releases, you are not depriving the band of
  any revenue; I know of no cases where people buy boots *instead of* real
  releases, but rather to supplement them (as another poster in the same issue
  pointed out, why pay more for bad quality?).  This is especially true for
  that bulk of material which is not released legitmiately in any form.  For
  example, there are no official live recordings of "Natural Science", nor are
  there ever likely to be any.  Yet seeing this number performed live was the
  highlight of two tours for me, and having a recoding of it would benefit
  *me* significantly.  The challenge is for James McKeon to show how my
  obtaining one hurts or deprives Rush *in any way whatsoever*.

  The second aspect of intellectual property is trickier, involving control
  of content. By trading unauthorized recordings of performances, you deprive
  Rush from being able to control the content and quality of the recording
  (although they still control the content of the performance).  This is a
  legitimate beef, especially for a band like Rush that consitently shows
  concern for such issues.  My attitude here is basically "tough".  They are
  public figures, performing publically.  We are entitled to witness their
  performances for the cost of a ticket, and any mistakes they make in their
  performance are part of the public record.  Again, nearly any fan would MUCH
  rather have a clean recording of a mistake-free performance, but for much of
  the material this is simply not available at any cost.

> As in the realm of most physical goods, the terms of a sale are mutually
> agreed upon by both parties.  If you purchase one of their CD's or attend one
> of their concerts, you are agreeing to their terms of that transaction
> implicitly.

  James is absolutely correct on these points.  The questions I am asking are
  "is it reasonable?" and "who loses with boots?".

> If you claim that you don't agree to their terms but make the transaction
> anyway and violate those terms, you have engaged in fraud.  Fraud is version
> of theft and is, as it should be, punishable under the law.

   Note that I am NOT asking "is it legal?", I am sure the restrictions are
   legal and in most cases bootlegs are illegal.  Also, the crime is not
   "fraud" unless you represent the recordings as official.  I believe the
   crime involves copyright violation.

> For these reasons, anyone attending a Rush concert who tapes it is engaging
> in theft, regardless of their intentions and future plans for what they have
> stolen.

  this is just plain incorrect.  No actual theft has occurred simply by the
  act of making a recording.

> The person who illegally tapes a CD or a concert is committing, both
> morally and legally, the same crime as a shoplifter or a car thief, and
> deserves the same scorn and punishment.

  no, the crime is quite different.  The reason we should have less "scorn" for
  the "criminal" is that bootleg crime is victimless, while the shoplifter and
  car thief have deprived others of their property.  If you make a bootleg,
  Rush still owns their music and all performances thereof.

As a final note, I must mention that I am not a lawyer.  Most of my knowldge of
this are comes from starting a software business, where the issues are similar
(but far from identical; copying software is more like making a tape of a CD
than of recodring a concert).  Also, I note that I personally own no bootlegs
whatsoever, of Rush or any other group.

-Randall Stark

----------------------------------------------------------

Date:        Fri, 04 Sep 92 09:49:12 EDT
From: Gerry Good <J455%NEMOMUS.bitnet@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Take is easy, JM

This is in response to James McKeon's philosophical enlightenment
from the last issue...TAKE A PILL DUDE!
Seriously--I don't own any Rush bootlegs.  Rush is my favorite band
but I see nothing wrong in trading boots for free.  I doubt that it
hurts their real album sales much if at all.
Also--I may alone on this, but I hope that the next studio effort by
Rush goes back to a level like Hold Your Fire and Presto, as RTB is
in my opinion a little too pop-oriented, for example
in RTB (the song) where they practically have a rapper or whatever.
I like Dreamline and Ghost of a Chance, but some of the other songs
seem a little mediocre as compared to earlier efforts.
Anyway I thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 10:35:48 -0500
From: Michael Silverman <cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu>
Subject: Producing bootlegs...

This is in response to James McKeon's allegations that bootleging
is a moral crime....

I agree that anyone who bootlegs a concert and sells it is stealing
from Rush, but as for the recording of a concert for private use, this
is fine morally. James used the analogy that taping a show would be
like stealing a car....this is a logically false analogy; when you
steal a car, you take a physical object from a person (that person
no longer has tat object)....but when you tape a Rush show, you are
not taking anything physical....it's not as if you taping the show is
depriving anyone else from enjoying it....and if you just keep the
tape for your own enjoyment, you are not costing Rush any money.

I would suggest to Rush, that if they do not like all the bootlegging
going on that they do what Zappa did a few years back and release a
set of concerts on CD....if Rush released four or so CD-quality show
(maybe one from every other tour in the 80's) I bet you that bootlegging
would nearly dissapear...after all, why would anyone want a grainy tape
of a show when they can get that tour on CD!

Just my .02

cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:24:08 -0400
From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: fraud!

>From: James.B.McKeon@Dartmouth.EDU
>Subject: Bootlegs

>I find it sad and disturbing that an alleged fan of such accomplished artists
>would self-righteously defend his ability to steal their material.
>Fundamentally, Rush are producers.  They do not create goods meant to satisfy
>man's physical needs, but his intellectual ones.  They provide the
>integration of whole chains of concepts and present them as a perceptual
>concrete, a piece of music, for you to experience.  In this process they do
>for you an immense intellectual favor - they allow you to grasp that entire
>chain of concepts and their consequent emotions directly, providing you an
>integration of those ideas you would lack without their work.  It is in this
>manner that they provide you with what is an intellectual product.

Thanks for explaining reality to us -- very enlightening.

>As the sole creators of this product, they have the right to set any
>considerations they choose as a precondition of trading it in public.  As in
>the realm of most physical goods, the terms of a sale are mutually agreed
>upon by both parties.  If you purchase one of their CD's or attend one of
>their concerts, you are agreeing to their terms of that transaction
>implicitly.

>If you claim that you don't agree to their terms but make the transaction
>anyway and violate those terms, you have engaged in fraud.  Fraud is version
>of theft and is, as it should be, punishable under the law.

Oh no!

>For these reasons, anyone attending a Rush concert who tapes it is engaging
>in theft, regardless of their intentions and future plans for what they have
>stolen.  No amount of rationalizations change the nature of the crime.  The
>person who illegally tapes a CD or a concert is committing, both morally and
>legally, the same crime as a shoplifter or a car thief, and deserves the same
>scorn and punishment.

Perhaps a stoning?

I personally view bootlegs much like archeological artificacts: if they
are not made and preserved, then a portion of musical history is lost
forever. If the band were to record and market recordings of their
concerts then bootlegs would be unnecessary as `legitimate' records
of this history would remain. It may be that Rush own the rights to
the `intellectual property' embodied in the sound that fills the
concert halls they play, but they are allowing that property to go
straight into the cosmic garbage by not recording it themselves.
That's just tragic...

Gregg

Gregg Jaeger    (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu)     | Tristero?   ______/|/|  Treestero?
Dept(s). of Physics (and Philosophy)      ------------    (_) \|\|  Trystero?
Boston University, 590 Commonwealth Ave.,Boston MA 02215 ---------------------

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 13:34:58 CDT
From: richardr@stolaf.edu (Roman R Richardson)
Subject: Rush Goodies!

Hi all!  Good to be here.  Maybe someone out there can help me.  When I first
saw Rush during the Signals tour I picked up a tapestry of the Siganls cover.
Big ol' cloth thing about 3ft square...my prized possesion.  I was wondering
if they even make those anymore?  I bought it at a T-shirt stand during the
show and ever since I've been going nuts trying to find another one.  Any
ideas?

Thanx much,
  Roman Richardson
  richardr@stolaf.edu
	- "Experience to Extremes"...

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 15:47:06 CDT
From: shawstaj@uwwvax.uww.edu
Subject: RUSH and ABC

Hello all,

Did anybody notice RUSH appeared on ABC's "In Concert" back
on 6-19-92 ? The only problem was, where I live, all the
ABC channels preempted(sp?) the show all summer long with paid
programing(read 1/2 hour commercial):-(

I was wondering if anyone happened to tape the show, I would sure
like a video of it! E-mail me please.

Thanks in advance,
Joel
shawstaj@uwwvax.uww.edu

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 18:16:12 -0400
From: jlang (~ Rush Fanatic ~)
Subject: Bootlegging and such.

Well, Kudos goes to Terry Stedman for putting his views out bluntly 
like that.  I agree with what he says.  It's like abortion.  If you're
against it then don't do it.  

My personal feelings on bootlegging is it's ok to trade and record
bootlegs with others.  What I don't like seeing is someone trying to
make a quick buck off of the process.  These are the leeches who take
bootlegs and then sell them for $30-40 a pop.  These people I feel are
the ones who are ripping off the artists.   I don't see anything wrong
with John Smith and Jane Doe getting together to swap some live tapes,
no money, no profits, no motives involved.  I know lots of fans who
trade or even give out free bootlegs to other fans/friends, no charge
(provided they get reimburse with the tapes of course).  I've done this
many times for other fans myself.  It's one thing to share a bootleg
show with another fan who can appreciate the material.  It's another
thing to sell it for money and make some quick buck off of another fan's
desire for bootleg material.  

-Jimmy
jlang@syrinx.umd.edu
PS> Oh yes, I forgot to include "Your opinion may vary."

----------------------------------------------------------

To submit material to The National Midnight Star, send mail to:

    rush@syrinx.umd.edu

For administrative matters (subscription, unsubscription, changes, and 
questions), send mail to:

    rush-request@syrinx.umd.edu    or
    rush-mgr@syrinx.umd.edu

There is now anonymous ftp access available on Syrinx.  The network
address to ftp to is:

    syrinx.umd.edu       or       128.8.2.114

When you've connected, userid is "anonymous", password is <your userid>.
Once you've successfully logged on, change directory (cd) to 'rush'.

There is also a mail server available (for those unable or unwilling to
ftp).  For more info, send email with the subject line of HELP to:

    server@ingr.com

These requests are processed nightly.  Use a subject line of MESSAGE to
send a note to the server keeper or to deposit a file into the archive.

The contents of The National Midnight Star are solely the opinions and 
comments of the individual authors, and do not necessarily reflect the 
opinions of the authors' management, or the mailing list management.

Copyright The Rush Fans Mailing List, 1992.

Editor, The National Midnight Star
(Rush Fans Mailing List)
********************************************
End of The National Midnight Star Number 505
********************************************



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