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Subject: 10/01/92 - The National Midnight Star #527
Status: R

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List posting/followup:     rush@syrinx.umd.edu
Administrative matters:    rush-request@syrinx.umd.edu
                                    or
                           rush-mgr@syrinx.umd.edu

(Administrative postings to the posting address will be ignored!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


          The National Midnight Star, Number 527

                 Thursday, 1 October 1992
Today's Topics:
			Administrivia
           The Relentless New vs. Old Argument
      Re: 09/30/92 - The National Midnight Star #526
          ESL CD and other weird noises etc. . .
           Rush, the Universe and Everything...
                     Caress of Steel
                  More on the convention
                    The Prisoner, etc.
        opening acts - my 4 rubles and 80 kopecks
      RE: 09/30/92 - The National Midnight Star #526
      Re: 09/30/92 - The National Midnight Star #526
                    My first Rush show
                  Lame arguments abound.
                Melody Intro..Who Does It?
               Defending New Rush Material
                      alt.music.rush
                          (none)
                    Hold your pictures
           Thanks for discussing Dream Theater
		Rehashed topic (Dan's long letter)
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu Oct  1 17:40:34 EDT 1992
From: rush-mgr (The National Midnight Star Editor)
Subject: Administrivia

Well, there certainly has been a lot of discussion about the "old" vs.
"new" Rush thread.  This is a really old rehashed topic here.  Perhaps
for the some who are involved in the thread may want to start moving the
discussion over to email.  This is not to say that the NMS is not a
place for such discussions, but I am starting to feel that some of this
could be better handled/debated over email.  In particular, the last
post, is 12K and although I think it's only fair that Dan gets his say
in some of the recent comments against him.  In the future though, detailed
discussions would be encouraged through email.  Well, enough of that!

So now, anyone got some late-breaking Rush news?  Ken?  Want to tell us
anything?  Also, for those who aren't aware, The Rush Fanzine A Show of
Fans is coming out with issue #5.  This is an EXCELLENT fanzine, and NMS
readers should look into it.  For more info on ASOF, check out the FAQL.

Please also check out John's post about the convention.

							: rush-mgr


----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 19:53:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Philip M. Simon" <ps3q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: The Relentless New vs. Old Argument

    Upon subscribing to the NMS almost two years ago, the arguments
regarding the evolution of Rush were fresh and intriguing.  There were
valid points on both sides of the proverbial coin, and those points were
made forcefully.  (I happen to like old Rush a little better than the
new for what it's worth.)
    The debates have continued, to one degree or another, for the past
two years (and I suspect longer than that).  I began to read those posts
less intensely, then just skim them, and finally just omit them from my
readings.
   It just seems as if there is a limit to how much any one topic can be
intelligently discussed.  I submit that there are only so many angles to
look at Rush's progression.  At some point, the whole issue becomes very
stale, oversaturated if you will.  Given that I understand both
perspectives, and that there is no "right" one, I have simply lost
interest in the whole subject.  Thus, I am reading less and less of the
NMS each day.
    I am no advocating a change in format of the NMS: the benefits to be
derived are indeed enormous.  However, I think I may have outgrown the
set of issues too frequently discussed on it (i.e. new vs old Rush,
various rumours and interpretations of lyrics, "first times," and the
like).  Along those lines, the same has happened with regard to
listening to Rush.  There is only so much you can take before you lose
interest to some extent.  I still listen to The Boyz, but not nearly as
much as even six months ago and certainly nowhere near the amount 2
years ago.
    I would like to see new topics debated, but I am not sure that there
are many more.  Rush is just one group, albeit a great one, and hence
there is a finite amount of discussion, listening, and reading you can
do about them.

Phil Simon.

"...because we're here."

----------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: 09/30/92 - The National Midnight Star #526
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:04:39 PDT
From: Bob Joslin <bobj@hpindhc.cup.hp.com>

>Is it just me, or does track 12 of Exit..Stage Left have a "click" about
>three and a half minutes into La Villa Strangiato?...

I happend to have ESL at work today, and yes, I do notice a click at
3:37 into La Villa

Bob

----------------------------------------------------------

Date:           Wednesday, 30 September 1992, 20:11:50 EDT
From: Charles J McDonald <chuck@geosci.lan.mcgill.ca>
Subject:        ESL CD and other weird noises etc. . .

I don't recall a weird click in the ESL CD,
	but I get an interesting "ping" in The Pass on Presto.

	Is anyone else familiar with these strange noises

rpan@microsoft notices:
	Neil's plays on words. . .

	Yep -- I love analysing the lyrics and motif changes from one sone
to the next on the various albums.

Old CD's!
	I have the old albums but I'd like to get them in CD.  Does the
"Chronicles" CD have the lyrics inside it?  If not I think I'd rather just
get each of the three seperatly.  (Do the seperate albums have lyrics
included?!)

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
:
: "May the sands of time never get in your suit."
:
: Charles J McDonald
: Department of Earth and Planatary Sciences
: McGill University
: 3450 Rue de University			    (514) 398-6767
: Montreal, Que  H3A 2A7			fax (514) 398-4680
:
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:51:03 EDT
From: Pierre Martin <martin@phy.ulaval.ca>
Subject: Rush, the Universe and Everything...

Hello fans,

     I've some comments about the "old" songs vs the "new" songs
but first, I saw Rush for the first time in 1982 (Signals tour) at Quebec
City.  The opening band was "The tenances" (or anything like that).  Well,
they played few songs (could we name it "songs"?) and they stopped and
quit under a rain of rolls of toilet paper!!!  I don't remember who was
the opening band for the p/g concert but, Marillion was for the next one
and, it was a great performance! I saw a recent interview with Mark Kelly
(keyboards) and he said that it was probably their best live performance !
Marillion is a VERY popular band here now (three concerts in 1992!).  The
opening band for the HYF concert was a canadian band named "Chalk Circle".
They were good, playing notably a Max Webster song.  The last two opening
bands were Voivod and Andy Curran.  Well, noise, noise, noise...!

Now, I agree with many opinions, concerning the "old" songs vs
"new" songs, that many recent songs appear to be more "simplist" that
some old songs.  But, IMHO a lot a recent songs are much more musical
and, very important to me, much more DIFFICULT TO PLAY that some old
songs.   As a drummer and a dedicated fan of Neil's playing, I can say
that it's more difficult to play the end of Bravado or the "jazz"
pattern in Where's my thing? that the long tom-tom fills of the "old"
epoch (FBN and COS in particular).  However, it is true that the more
progressive period (AFTK and especially Hemispheres) are in general
more difficult to play, particularly because the odd time signatures.
Moreover, it's appear to me that the old songs before 2112 are not very
"original".  For example, some sections of "The Necromancer" was very
influenced by Yes (particularly Heart of the Sunrise) and The Who (
the end of the song). Of course, influences appear everywhere in the
long history of Rush, but I think that the songs after 2112 are lot more
original and mature.

   Anyway, IMO Rush have been and will be always a INTERESTING
band because they have always explored many musical directions and
conserved their identity : complex arrangements, technical abilities,
interesting lyrics, great live performances...

Pierre Martin

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:17:11 cdt
From: "Krauss,Eric B" <KRAUSS@AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: Caress of Steel

No matter how many times I am told "man, what is with you," I will still say
that Caress of Steel is Rush's weakest album.  I really think it sucks.

E. Krauss

	[ What exactly about COS do you not like?  Simply stating
	  that "it sucks" without any coherent reason is beyond me.
	  But then I like COS myself :)		: rush-mgr ]

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Michael Santore <jsbh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: More on the convention

I've been getting some response on the NMS/Rush convention, but far far
less than I expected...
So far I've only gotten like 10 postcards...

If you want this thing to happen.... PLEASE send me a postcard (via snail mail)
since it's easier for me than email. Include your name, phone, email
address, suggestions, dates that are good, and any feedback on the
convention.
Send to:
	John Santore
	1071 Morewood Ave.
	Pittsburgh, PA 15213

I'll try and organize some sort of convention, but I need interest....
I'm using the postcards as a reference guide to how many people are
interested, to estimate costs, and logistics....if you even have a
remote interest please send one....  If I don't get a bigger response
soon, I'm just going to write it off....

				Thanks-
					John Santore

----------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Mermagen <cmermag@wam.umd.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 22:21:28 -0400
Subject: The Prisoner, etc.

Hey, everyone who has brought up the prisoner series, listen up..

I do believe that they are showing the series now on the new SCI-FI
channel. I saw part of a commercial last night with the ball and the
lead actor. Should be good to whomever wishes to see it..

Also, all this newstuff vs. old stuff blather-
My views and feelings are as follows:

I like their old stuff; I like their new stuff (period!)

To me, everyone has their right to like or dislike a certain music type,
or band for that matter. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Someone
wrote in the latest NMS that I just read that their new stuff was not
progressive. Well, I guess it is how the LISTENER defines progressive. Too
many times things are typecast into one slot or another, when they could
actually transcend into several categories, or make up a new one. Personally,
I have always been fond of the more 'album rock' (as billboard puts it),
but I like jazz, some heavy metal, some light rock, maybe even some music
to die by, but in the end, it has been RUSH TO ME that have been my
musical inspiration. I don't attempt to force this on anyone, nor make
anyone believe one thing or another, I guess I just like RUSH and think
that their music in my mine is really excellent.

>From a pure musicallity aspect, as someone wrote the other day (here, or
at alt.music.rush), that their music HAS actually progressed as defined by
music theory. I won't rehash what was said (because my knowledge is limited
(as usual :))), but it is true.

Oh well, enough ponderings for one eve..

Now it's time to ROCK

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 21:30:25 EST
From: "Jason McNamara, PCFC Consultant" <JMCNAMAR@ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: opening acts - my 4 rubles and 80 kopecks

Though I've seen Rush 5 times (each on different tours), I seem to have a
knack for showing up after the opener finishes.  Except last October,
I saw Eric Johnson opening for the group *NOT 'the boyz'* in Indianapolis.
He had IMO a super set!  I'm sort of surprised I've only heard one other
mention him - or did EJ only play a few shows in the Midwest?

Jason McNamara
Russian and East European Institute, Indiana University
Public Computing Facilities Consulting, Indiana University
jmcnamar@ucs.indiana.edu	/	jmcnamar@iubacs.bitnet

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:12:10 EST
From: The Professor <MGALL@ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: 09/30/92 - The National Midnight Star #526

Dearest Rush-Heads,
What's up with the NMS
T-shirts?  This is my very first post, but I've
been reading the NMS for over a year.  I'm a senior in high school, and
I'm using a friends password to log onto this Inm (Internet) thing.
I just wanted to finally introduce myself, my name is Kevin Hood.  I've
really enjoyed reading the NMS and I'd like to thank everybody for making
it possible.  (Anybody know about the B-Man';s book, or the camera
mans?)  Takwe (Take) it easy............The Professor

***********    ***     ***    **********     ***     mgall@ucs.indiana.edu
***********    ***     ***    **********     ***     mgall@iubacs
***            ***     ***    ***            ***
***            ***     ***    **********     **********
***            ***     ***           ***     ***    ***
***            ***********    **********     ***    ***

Lessons taught but never learned.  All around us, anger burns.
Guide the future by the past, Long ago the mould was past.
For they marched up to Bastille Day, la guillotine claimed her bloody prize.
Hear the echoes of centuries, power isn't all that money buys.

----------------------------------------------------------

From: J.C. Rush <cook@donald.cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: 09/30/92 - The National Midnight Star #526
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:41:14 CDT

 Whassup folks?  Been  a while since I posted, just some rigamarole on some
 recent topics o' conversation.

   1.) Skid Row's cover of "What You're Doing"
   -------------------------------------------
        I was actually quite impressed.  Some of the guitar work and the
     ending drum work is a bit over-done, but that's Skid Row for you.
     I would definitely purchase this tape, their version of Hendrix's
     "Little Wing" is also very well done.

  2.) The beginning of "Dreamline"
  ---------------------------------
       I don't know what whoever said the beginning of Dreamline was a car
     sound was smoking, but it is most certainly NOT a car driving by.
     It was a the sound of a passing wave, and here's proof:  In the tour
     book, one of Geddy's pieces is a Korg Wavestation, a device for pro-
     ducing such waves in any pitch and length.  Hopefully, that should
     end all this non-sensical debate.  (IMMHTTO)

   3.) New VS Old Rush
   --------------------
       I really hate to see such heated debate over which era of Rush's
     music is better.  Older Rush has it's good and bad points, newer
     Rush has it's good and bad points.  You can take one side or the
     other as to which you prefer, but saying that either era is better
     than the other is purely your opinion, and is by no means fact that
     is cast in stone.

   4.) HOW DO YOU MAKE A .SIG???????
   ----------------------------------
       Can someone, ANYONE just send me a short mail message telling
     me how to do this, since no one here (on my campus, that is.) wants
     to tell me.  I really appreciate it, and I apologize for the non-
     Rush content.

                           Guess that's all for now..
                                  -J.C. Rush (cook@donald.cs.umn.edu)

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:54:36 -0700
From: Jonathan G. Moskow <moskow@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: My first Rush show

I guess that it is a requirement to post, as your first message, when your
first Rush show took place. I saw them about a year ago, with Primus opening.
I went mainly to see Primus and a good show by Rush. I was not disappointed.
I was so impressed with Rush that I started my Rush CD collection the next 
day. I have a pretty extensive collection now but am still adding. (Being in 
college, I have less to spend on CD's.) About the show-It was amazing! Neil's
drum solo was the best I have ever heard live. (It's still not as good as 
Moby Dick but..)
I thought that the combonation of two bass oriented bands on the same bill would
be too much to handle. I was wrong. Geddy's voice didn't bother me as much as I
thought it would. He wasn't nearly as squeky as I thought he would be. I had 
heard some live Rush and was concerned that Geddy's vocal style would grate 
on my nerves. I was pleasantly surprised.
	(It's time for a new paragraph...) Actually, I have said in the past
to my friends: "There is unrest the forest."
						Jonathan Moskow

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 01:55:04 CDT
From: richardr@stolaf.edu (Roman R Richardson)
Subject: Lame arguments abound.

Now IMHO I like new and old rush because it is well written, well played
music that is some of the best out there.  To bring up what Todd Zorik said
about not liking new rush because it isn't progressive rock...that's
just about the lamest argument I have ever heard.  If Rush sounded like the
progressive music of today I think I would lose my lunch!  Rush is/has been/
and always will be my definition of "Rock".  Other people have said that they
don't like the keyboards and effects that Rush uses.  Let me ask you a
question:  Would you really like Rush now, 1992, if they sounded like they
used to?  If the answer is "yes", then you are gonna have trouble handling
life because you fear (maybe "dislike" is a better word) change.  All things
will change as time passes.  Can't argue with that on any solid ground.
Rush has changed and is still changing.  Every album has new changes from
the last.  Even Hemispheres was a far cry from the earlier Fly By Night.  If
someone came out and said, "Gee, ya know, I hate Roll the Bones because it is
just too different from Presto."  We would all laugh in their face!  Or at
least, we should!  Every band through-out time has changed.  Even a band
like Zepplin changed over their career.  Change is a permanent trait of time.

I am not saying to you have to like all Rush.  I am merely trying to point out
that if you feel disappointed or "cheated" that Rush has changed then just
realize that they have changed...are never going to go back...and get on
with your life.  Rush will always play what they "WANT" to play and feel that
te music has some meaning for them.  Neal will write lyrics that incorporate
what he is, or has been, going through or feeling strongly about and Geddy
and Alex will write music that they want to play and can have fun with.
If you don't like it...then don't listen.  If you do decide to listen, do
me the favor of having an open mind with no preconceived notions about how
it "should" sound.

If this has seemed a little harsh...well, it was meant to be.

"Sensibility, armed with sense and Liberty..."

Roman  - richardr@stolaf.edu

----------------------------------------------------------

From: tvos@ais.org (David A Warner)
Subject: Melody Intro..Who Does It?
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 3:41:13 EDT

Question, who actually does the melody intro for the three blind mice?

is it ged and his synth equiptment, did someone else outside of the band
or what? please email....let me know..

the voice of silence

And if the music stops..............
    There's only the sound of the rain........
            All the hope and glory..................
                All the sacrifice in vain................
If love remains.........
   Though everything is lost..........
          We will pay the price..............
             But we will not count the cost...........
                                   * Bravado *

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 08:09:00 +0000
From: "Robert (R.A.) Herrage" <herrage@bnr.ca>
Subject: Defending New Rush Material

>> from Todd Zorick <zorickto@sandnet.UCSD.EDU>
>>
>>   I have to post this to express my disgust with the subscribers
>>   defending new Rush material, that is post PeW.  Every argument
>>   seems to be that we should just like it because it is Rush and
>>   it is different than the old stuff.
>>
>>   ...
>>
>>   It is funny that no one defending the new Rush material even
>>   bothers to defend the music, -so in this sense, they admit defeat,
>>   and retrench to personal attacks on the fashion sense, lifestyle,
>>   and character of us Old Rush-ophiles.
>>

My arguments were not intended to imply that you should just like it
because RUSH did it.  It's just that blatant attacks that say that
"it stinks", or something along that line, it what gets me.  Maybe
from your (and others') perspective, the old stuff is better.  I would
tend to agree.  If I was to order the releases from "most-liked" to
"least-liked", some of the newer material would not be at the top of
my list.  That's just because, from a playing perspective, I get the
most enjoyment out of playing songs that are technically demanding --
ones that you can't just sit down and play after not having played
them for a long time.

On the other hand, I'm guessing that you probably don't play an instru-
ment or that maybe you do, but that maybe you weren't in band in school.
Again, I'm just speculating, but my experience with various people is
that those who don't understand "musically" good songs have never been
shown how to understand things musically.  They don't understand time
signatures, key changes, harmonizing, etc.

Musically, songs like "Grand Designs", "Bravado", "Prime Mover", "Open
Secrets", etc., are prime examples of the best of RUSH.  On the other
hand, these might be viewed by some as not having as much energy or be
as technically demanding as, say, "Tom Sawyer", "Cygnus X-1", "La Villa
Strangiato", "Hemispheres", etc.  Again, I might tend to agree.  From
the percussion standpoint, "Where's My Thing?" (for me) is the only
technically demanding song on Roll The Bones.  On Presto, there really
wasn't any technically demanding song (for me, again, from a percussion
standpoint).  RUSH has zipped through the recording of these releases.
Maybe that has something to do with it.

For me, "Power Windows" and "Hold Your Fire" are the best releases to
date.  They stimulate me from both points: musically and technically.
However, I always have a hankering to play "Bytor & The Snowdog",
"Cygnus X-1", "Hemispheres", ATWAS' "Working Man"; they do give me
something that a lot of the new material just doesn't give me.

But, that doesn't make the newer material bad!!!

Rob

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: 01 Oct 1992 11:44:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Armed with sense and liberty <S3SIJDP@SAE.TOWSON.EDU>
Subject: alt.music.rush

Say, what's this big conspiracy to keep me from reading alt.music.rush?
I readnews at bbs.oit.unc.edu and we get every inane alt group you can
think of.  I've been waiting around for alt.music.rush for months now
and it's never showed up.  Does everybody else with usenet access
have alt.music.rush?

	[ Dave, depending on the site, they may not carry the
	  alt.* hierarchy or only in a limited feed.	: rush-mgr ]

"What's the deal..."

                                              Dave Purnell

----------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 01 Oct 92 10:32:34 EDT
From: JEPSTEIN@Kentvm.Kent.edu

the new command to get a subscripition to u.s. rocker is
 tell listserv@kentvm afd add rocker txt
it really works now, sorry about the wierdeness before

----------------------------------------------------------

From: rwschw@mail.wm.edu (Schwenke Roger Wyckoff)
Date:         1 Oct 92 14:19:45
Subject:      Hold your pictures

    I was listening to HYF the other day and I finally noticed a lot
of the little secrets in the inside picture [some guy juggling
fireballs].  i.e.  the fire hydrant from Signals and the televisions
from PoW.  What else is there that I'm missing?  The number fifteen on
the front building looks purposely lit, but the meaning doesn't pop
instantly to mind.  Also, the juggler looks farmiliar, but I can't
place him.
    I was a little disappointed to realize that if you put the entire
PoW picture into the HYF picture the window from PoW ends up INSIDE
the building.  This isn't the sort of inattention to detail I would
expect on an album whose merits depend so much on subtle details.

                Roger insertbiglongsignaturehere Schwenke

----------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 13:08:48 EDT
From: dmz@sunsrvr2.cci.com (Dave Zegas)
Subject: Thanks for discussing Dream Theater

Although this is only mildly Rush-related, I'd like to thank all of you who 
posted thoughts and commentary on Dream Theater.  I bought Images and Words 
yesterday, listened to it last night, and my reaction was HOLY #$%*!  What 
a band!  This is great stuff, and I thank all of you again for turning me 
onto them.

By the way, I got the CD for $11.98 at The House of Guitars, 645 Titus Ave, 
Rochester, NY, for those of you in the area.

==	Dave Zegas   dmz@cci.com
 /	Northern Telecom ( we were formerly Computer Consoles, Inc. )
/	97 Humboldt St.
==	Rochester, NY 14609

----------------------------------------------------------

From: qsp!danb@uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Benbenisty)
To: rush@syrinx.umd.edu
Subject: Rehashed topic  [ Caution:  LONG ]

Robert Sapp wrote:
>>the total chameleon effect that Rush pulled in the 80's -
>>The only way you can distinguish new Rush from the rest of the pap
>>out there is from the occasional bass solo and Geddy's unique voice.
>The first part of Daniel's post was equally tedious and filled with
>self-sustaining dogma which he labeled *support* so I believe I'll just

Well, how do YOU distinguish new Rush from the rest of the stuff out there?
There are lots of decent lyrics in otherwise boring songs.... However,
you're pretty much right.  My arguments were sort of dogmatic and simplistic,
only because I didn't take the time to go into extreme detail (read: publish a 
book on Music Theory and the Downfall of Rush).  However, I have chosen the 
less ambitious route of provocateur.  I want to get a good discussion going, 
so I can both learn and edify.  I don't have time (and neither does NMS have 
the space) for a fully flameproof criticism of RUSH....

>these folks are still trapped in that era with the old Rush music - they
>wear the wame clothes, say the same things, think the same thoughts.  They
>are stagnent.

Maybe that's true of some people, but not of me.  There are several current 
bands who's current material I enjoy greatly; in other words, I'm not one of
the folks you refer to as being trapped in "that era."  Jeez, I'm only 24!

>Mr. Benbensity seems concerned with the lack of connections between
>music and lyrics.  I'll give him several off the top of my head.
>No sir, I believe your arguement is largely unfounded.  If fact, I can't
>think of an instance where Rush's music does belie their music...can you?

Did you mean "lyrics belie the music" or something like that? Anyway, I think 
that, in general, Geddy's singing has less emotional range than it used to 
(IMHO so does their recent music, so maybe they ARE connected!), which is
what I really meant to say.  Your arguments were well made, and I will listen 
again to the tracks (brush the dust off - kof!) you mentioned in hopes of 
finding something special.  However, it is still my contention that Rush began
to lose some of their uniqueness after MP.  I will support, uh, I mean 
'elaborate on this' later (a Rush biography I have has a comment on this.).
Rush seems to be trying to have a broad appeal without upsetting anyone with 
jarring rhythms or (gasp) original chord progressions.  Of course the extreme 
of this idea is elevator music, played in the broadest venues of all - 
elevators, malls, and supermarkets.

On to the next dude: Kevin B. Fournier wrote:

>     Dan,  you define progressive rock as the result of an experiment in creat-
>ivity with no other distinguishing features.  This is wrong.  

Why didn't you quote me?  I said:
>>Progressive rock may best be defined as a no-holds-barred creative approach
>>to music, except using mostly conventional rock instruments and blending in
>>a few rock conventions.  Whereas most genres of popular music obey a strict
>>set of rules (e.g. reggae must have a clean guitar strumming staccato chords
>>on the 2 and 4), progressive rock attempts to break free of this, in effect
>>becoming a non-genre.

>The Ramones were once on the forefront of creative music, but no one would 
>say they were champs of prog. rock.  
Neither would I.  They were on the forefront of yet another well-defined genre: 
PUNK. musts: heavily distorted guitar, bass, drums, no keyboards, 4/4 
conventional rock rhythm, purposefully amateur and muddy musicianship, simple,
fast, angry, short songs, with screamed nihilistic lyrics. Image is important 
in this genre, in the form of scarification, uglification, piercing, pissing, 
spitting, and shitting on the audience - anything which is perceived as alien-
ating.  They did not break free of anything, but created a new little genre-
prison.  Being faster and sloppier isn't "the forefront of creative music"

>you claim there is no such thing as a genre of prog. rock acts.  Wrong!!  Prog.
>rock is a genre characterized by use of odd time signatures, very expanded
>dynamic ranges, instruements not normal for R&B based garage rock&roll, and
>heavy use of electronic instruementation and augmentation.  Early Rush falls

Wrong - these some characteristics of some prog songs - what MUST progressive 
rock have?  (See above example w/r Reggae). BTW, Many MODERN CLASSICAL pieces 
fall under all of the contraints you just gave :) (many even use rock drums)!
The point I'm trying to make is that progressive music makes a valiant attempt 
to use many styles of rock and pop music, adding whatever exotic elements are 
needed to attempt to break free from these genres (including odd TS's, non-
traditional chord progressions, musical development more similar to classical 
music than to pop) to a new musical realm.  Reggae/Punk/Rap/etc., on the other 
hand, attempts to fit in with more rigid conventions.

The specific problems encountered while trying to define a prog rock 'genre'
prompted me (maybe a little too rebelliously) to call it a non-genre.  I 
think it's better to call a band "more progressive" or "less prog," Don't you? 
Try defining prog rock again in terms of MUSTS, and see if ANY of RUSH's 
prog-era songs fail your definition, or if any "non-prog" songs meet it!

>'Tormato' and 'Drama'. Also, if the genre, by the time the boyz got to it, was
>still so "no-holds-barred" creative, why did Wakeman and Anderson leave Yes,
>why did ELP split up, and why did King Crimson and the Moody Blues both go into
>hiatus for many, many years???
I could respond specifically (like "because Fripp is a flake"), but I'd miss 
the spirit of your point, which is that the prog "genre" died because it "had 
grown tired of itself."  To tell you the truth, I don't know why the 80's was 
such an uncreative period in music, but I think it has more to do with the 
industry (including top bands) getting smarter, leaner, and better at shoving 
pabulum down our throats and making us buy it.  If you have lots of little 
uncreative sub-genres, it's much easier do direct marketing.  Maybe it's just 
YOU who is tired of prog rock....(?).

>don't discuss music from the 18th and 19th century unless you are prepared
I am prepared with 15 years of classical training (piano) and several thousand 
hours of listening to this music.  The classical and early romantic eras are 
my foremost musical passion.  I've also written a few etudes.

>For starters, Mozart is painfully unoriginal.
A sadly common view.  It's true that he was primarily a court musician, and 
was forced to earn a living composing ingenious but oft unambitious works.
But he did write over 600 works before he died at 35 years and he made many
brilliant breakthroughs, especially in his later years when he was often 
commissioned independently or worked independently.  THIS is what immortalized 
him!  Why don't you listen to the Jupiter? Or try writing an orchestral score 
yourself before flippantly putting down one of the greatest musical geniuses 
of all time?  Even if you don't like 90% of what he wrote, you'll still have 
far more hours of Mozart left over than all of RUSH's albums combined! Of 
course, Mozart never had to record :).

>Mozart ripped off a lot of Bach's themes and evocations, stripped them of the
>counterpunctal rythmic richness and complexity of Bach, and buried them in a

Mozart never even HEARD JS Bach until late in his career.  Maybe you're 
thinking of CPE BACH or JC BACH. Do you need references? It's true that Mozart 
INDIRECTLY used many of the baroque conterpoint TECHNIQUES that Bach had 
mastered,just as RUSH used some of the early seventies prog rock techniques.

>Beethoven, on the other hand, gets some praise for integrity in his music, 
>but sadly, it may all be derived from his fairly well established maddness.  

Chuckle. Where do you get your classical history from - cartoons?  Why don't
you read Solomon's biography of Beethoven?  I agree that his psychological
makeup may have contributed to his unfailing musical struggles, but he wasn't 
mad.  He managed his own affairs very well, was a good businessman, and even 
cared for his wayward father, brother, and nephew.  He had many friends, none 
of whom ever said that he was crazy.  I'll admit that he was a grump, tho.

>As far as your 'point', after Beethoven's Eroica
>Symphony, his music (except for the Pastorale (sp?)) bears no resemblance to
>Handel.  Your point is nonsequitor (sp?)

The middle movements of many of his later works have evidence of Handel's 
influence.  Try the 2nd and 3rd of the 8th symphony! Also, what about before 
his Heroic period? Before this period he was both original and influenced by 
Handel.  All I've been saying here is that one can be influenced by someone 
else, and still be original.  This is so simple and so true, yet you've taken 
my two-line classical example and blown it into something that belongs in 
rec.music.classical, in which you'd be flamed to a crispycritter.

Of importance is the EXTENT to which one is influenced.  I contend that RUSH is 
MORE INFLUENCED (read: less progressive) now than then.

>1) It is clear that the Rush of the 70's were not pioneers, they were following
>in the footsteps of band that peaked in the late 60's and early 70's.

to a certain extent - but so what?  Everybody has, of necessity, influences.
My contention is that they are following less interesting footsteps now, and
following them closer.  These footsteps being those of 80's pop bands.

>2) Although you feel the Rush of the 80's and 90's is with out redeeming 
>qualities, I believe you are in error.  The band has managed to offer a 
>universal appeal with their lyrics as is shown by the number of new female 
>rush fans...etc

Well, I went a little overboard with my "NEW RUSH SUCKS" statement (New RUSH 
is very good pop - but I just don't like most pop, except for dancing to). 
As for broad appeal, this is achieved in two ways: 1) go to the lowest common 
denominator (dominator), which is the largest population segment; one gets 
reasonably solid sales. 2) make the masses come to you - a gambit, but bands 
such as the Beatles did it.  RUSH has chosen the former (see above re: 
elevator music), as has 99% of all signed bands.

>3)Lastly, the lyrics can't just stand alone nor can the music in the songs.
Well, maybe I'm guilty of loving old Rush tunes which have adolescent lyrics.  
It's just that rock music like Jacob's Ladder or The Trees is hard to find, 
whereas good lyrics may be found in any old commonplace music in any old genre.
Besides, I like some of those old lyrics - and Geddy sang them passionately
(compare to "Big money" and "Show me don't tell me" being droned ad nauseum).

Some of the new lyrics are kinda cool, but that's not going to make me like
New Rush music much more.  Maybe most musicians (even literate ones! :)) are 
less lyrically (than musically) oriented than the general literate, book-
reading public.  BTW, I've met many musicians who enjoy old Rush, but I have 
NEVER met a musician who likes the new stuff at all.  You would be the first, 
if you're a musician.

>>>===Pan-Handle-Dan===>	danb@qsp.com
Daniel Benbenisty		Guitarist for EARWURM		


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